James Choi Spackman
Interview with James Choi Spackman, Chairman Emeritus of Spackman Group
Interviewers: Daniel Leibowitz, Benjamin Sachrison, Connor Smith
Length: 26:53
Date: 4 April, 2014
Connor: Uh, why don’t we start out with the first question? What events first led you to leave Korea when you were young?
Spackman: I left Korea for the US—you’re asking about me right? Okay, I left when I was sixteen for California to live in San Diego—near San Diego.
Ben: Did you want to leave Korea to get a better education, or was it because of events that were taking place in Korea at the time?
Spackman: Well, both. I was about twelve when the Korean war came. And, you can imagine the life of an orphan living in a war situation. Most of the time I had to work to feed myself, clothe myself, and so forth. And then when I was doing that, there was an opportunity for me to go to America. So I took on that, and I worked on that for a few years, and eventually I got off in San Francisco via a US Navy ship. So initially it was forced, but the idea of going to school, which I hadn’t been doing, appealed to me, so those are two reasons.
Connor: Mr. Spackman, did you live in the southern part of the peninsula when you first lived in Korea?
Spackman: Yeah, the southern part. But of course, the Korean war kind of engulfed the entire peninsula at different times. You know, down to the edge of the southern part, and then MacArthur pushed all the way up to the edge of the North Korean/Chinese border. So it was all over the peninsula, so everybody had to be affected by that.
Ben: Why did you ultimately decide to return to Korea when you were older?
Spackman: Return to Korea, okay. Yeah so of course I went through high school, and then college, and graduate school, and then I served in the Air Force for four years, US Air Force. And, so, when I was in the Air Force they sent me to Texas for training, Japan for a tour, and then they sent me to Korea. Which—I wanted to come but, there came an opportunity and so I seized on it.
Connor: So was it in your tour in Korea that you chose to move and stay in Korea? Or did that come later?
Spackman: Yeah it came later. While I was serving for three years in Korea, with the US Air Force, I was an intelligence officer. So I used to—I was in the Air Force intelligence. So I used to go to meetings with different intelligence people. You know, the US Army, the CIA, thing like that. So, I got to know the country pretty well. And in the process, I met my wife-to-be. I don’t know if you guys remember this, but the Pueblo incident, remember the US Navy ship that came along the eastern coast to collect intelligence in Korea? That incident occurred, and we were in an emergency mode, well we didn’t sleep too much. My primary job was to collect incoming intelligence, analyze it, and then work up a briefing for the commanding general. And I would drive up to the top of the hill where he lived, on the base. Throughout the night I would give him the briefing. And every time I got up there, he was always drunk because he had to drink to stay up I guess. So we'd share some scotch, but anyway. So I was doing all these things, and then I met my wife-to-be at a tennis court.
(5:00)
I was competing in the Air Force, US Army tennis tournament. Some schoolgirls came to watch us play, and she was in the stands. So anyway, to make the long story short, we met, we got married, and then we went back to California, and I got discharged at the Air Force base. And then we bought a car and drove to New York and started our new life there.
Connor: So, Mr. Spackman, maybe you could use your expertise in business today to help us understand if there’s any business being conducted between North and South Korea today?
Spackman: Well, the only business they conduct are the government-approved contacts and projects, like the so-called Kumgang mountain which is a very beautiful mountain in Korea. Mostly North Korea, but Korea. And then, the North and South agreed to use the tourism to earn money, primarily for the North Koreans. So, they’ve been doing that, but it stopped, it stopped before this young Jong Un came to power. And then another one would be the industrial conflict. You’ve got an industrial complex just above the border in North Korea, and South Korean businesses invested in that project to turn out the apparels, the clothing. Using the cheap labor force of the North Koreans, but of course you had to first train them, and do that, so that’s another way of dealing with them. And then there’s these so-called family reunions. You know, because of the Korean War, Koreans have families separated by the war. Some in North Korea, others in South Korea. So, I think when Jong Un’s father, Jong Il, started this—trying to bring these families together in meetings. So they’ve done that, of course the South Koreans had to give some money to the North Koreans, you know to induce them to do this. I think that’s a good thing. So there’s no commercial, individual—no private commercial trading or dealing with them. So it always has to go through the authorities to get the approval.
Dan: If there were to be commercial business between North Korea and South Korea, how do you think that would affect the diplomatic, political relationship between the North and the South?
Spackman: Obviously I think you’d have to have the two Koreas agree to set certain ways to conduct their business with one another. North Korea itself does not allow private North Korean businesses to deal with the South Korean businessman. In fact, I don’t think there’s any individual private business in North Korea. It’s all by the government, through the government. So, the governments have to agree to a set of rules to conduct these businesses. Like the free trade agreements that South Korea is engaged in. They have an agreement with the US, as well as Canada and the EU and others. But North Koreans don’t have that. All they have is the government doing to negotiating, trading, conducting. That’s the way it is with the Chinese, the Chinese are the largest business partner the North Korean’s have.
(10:00)
That’s where they get all their food, fuel, all the other stuff that they need. And then, the South Koreans are also giving humanitarian aids as well as these industrial projects that they engage in.
Ben: Do you think that the South Korean government could take any more steps to improve the relations with the North?
Spackman: Yeah I think so. You know if you just look ahead, you know you just can’t live on this cat and mouse basis. The North Koreans they—when I say North Koreans I mean the government, not the average citizen. You know there are tens of thousands of defectors, and there are about twenty thousand living in South Korea. I don’t mean them, I mean the North Korean government. They have to guide Jong Il’s money to carry out his consolidation and keep the potential defectors or potential dissenters satisfied. So that’s why some of these shenanigans he puts on, it’s to get some cash from South Korea or anybody else, including the US. So, unless you improve the lives of the North Koreans, you can’t really have a two-way conversation that is mutually respectful. I mean, it’s one-way giving. It’s like me giving some food to somebody who needs it. So, you’ve gotta develop this kind of mutual trust. That’s why the South Korean president, you know the first lady president in the history of Korea. I guess we don’t have one in America yet either. Park has this, what she calls, trust politics. I think it’s a good idea. You know the US ambassadors and the others think that it’s a great idea. You’ve got to have trust between the two so you can have an even keel, you know mutually equal discussions. Right now its so lopsided It’s just one way handouts from South Korea to North Korea. So you’ve gotta do that because you don’t wanna have this kind of armistice. You know they don’t have a peace treaty as you know. They stopped the Korean War, signed the armistice between the Chinese, North Korea, and the UN forces. South Korean government wasn’t a part of this armistice. And the North Koreans use the point to their advantage any time they had some problems. They cannot live like this for ever, I mean come on. Although they lived like this for over sixty years. From my little child days to now, in my seventies. You wanna make some kind of improvement, you want to build up their trust, as well as your trust in them. And the way you do that is to develop the economy, like the South Koreans have kept the GDP of twenty-six thousand. North Koreans have probably a few hundred thousand, if that. So you gotta improve the livelihood and economy. And then I think you could have more productive discussions to improve the relations. So I don’t think we are at that stage yet.
Ben: What steps are North Korean citizens taking to form these relations, or help build these relations? I know that their government is not necessarily willing to make these changes, but are the citizens themselves willing to take steps to improve them?
(15:00)
Spackman: Well I think some of them, especially the intelligentsia, you know the well-educated, would like to do that. And it’s very limited, as to what they can do in their line when you are based in North Korea because your every movement is controlled. I mean they put all the political prisoners in these gulag type of labor camps, and you know some of them just die in that camp. Very few escape from these gulags. But that’s why you have so many defectors. These people are the ones who are—who's been thinking about these things, they know they can’t realize their dreams within North Korea, so that’s why they defect to other countries. And, as I said, twenty thousand came down to South Korea. So, they wanna do that, but their hands are tied as long as they are in North Korea. Because they are so tightly watched and supervised, and they don't have enough to eat to begin with. So when you are hungry, you may have great ideas in your head to improve the people’s welfare or the country's development. But when you are hungry, you worry about your food before you worry about anything else. And that’s the case in North Korea for most of the common citizens. Except for the oligarchs and the hierarchy up. They are the ones who are living off the backs of these common citizens.
Ben: Do the defectors, when they leave, still have any loyalty to North Korea? Or when they’re gone do they mostly forget Korea and start up a new life?
Spackman: Well, there are that so-called twenty thousand in South Korea and tens of thousands elsewhere, some in the US. I’m sure they were dissatisfied and so they left North Korea. But, I'm sure after you live in the South, it’s very difficult for them to get adjusted here. They speak the language, but you know their education in the North was totally different from the way you and I go through go through school. So it’s difficult for them to get adjusted. But, with the support of the South Korean government, financial support—you know they put them up and try to give them jobs and train them so that they could get jobs. But not all of them are satisfied. You this is somewhat less than what they dreamed South Korea would be. I mean that would be the case even if it happened in the US or anywhere, you know.
Connor: How does the average South Korean citizen feel about the North? Do they feels sorry for the North Korean people, do they hate the country, or do they just want peaceful reunification?
Spackman: I think the generation, my generation. You know, the grandfathers of South Korea, are the ones who lived through the Korean war. Of course they hated it. I mean, I don’t hate them per se, I just hate their way of doing things and hurting people, and starving people, and these crazy things with the nuclear tests. But these are the people who do not like the North Koreans. But when we say North Koreans we basically mean the North Korean government. Not the average person, we feel sorry for them obviously. That’s why we send humanitarian aid, continuously. We’ve been doing that for years. But, the others, younger ones. Let’s say my children, who are in their forties, they don’t know North Korea, I mean the Korean war. So, they don’t have the same kind of feeling that we have, my generation. So, yeah, I think—and then the other ones who are going to be the leaders of both sides. It’s just like you guys are gonna be the leaders of the world to your generation. Especially if you keep up this good project, and do your best in school, and in your life.
(20:00)
So, young people are the future. And they have to be convinced, persuaded to look upon each other—the North Koreans are not gonna do this. South Korea has to do this persuading of the young generation to be more outward-looking and to look ahead to see the times when the two Koreas can unite as one country. Think about that, you know South Korea has about forty-five million population. North Korea has about twenty-five million population. So there’s seventy million, that’s like England in terms of population. You know the united Korea they can do a lot more if we can just bring up the North Koreans to the level where South Korea is. And go from there together. So, yeah, I think that it’s the younger generation increasingly they call the country’s direction in the South, as well as in the North—they’re not gonna have much chance because the government won’t allow them. I think there will eventually come a time when the uniting, the peninsula will be united. I hope so.
Ben: Do you think that this unification is possible with the current government of North Korea? Or do you think for this change to happen, the government must fall and a new government must be put in place?
Spackman: Well, that’s a tough one. One that I sometimes talk to my classmates, including your grandma sometimes about. That’s the direction that you have to go. I mean, you can’t just be stuck with this demarcation line and fighting with one another on some stupid nuclear tests and things, and then shooting—recently shooting into the western sea South Korea’s counter-shooting them. However, I’m not too worried that another major war will break up into the two Koreas. Because, if it does, then it’s gonna be devastating. In the old war, the Korean War, you know MacArthur wanted to bomb Manchuria in 1950 or 1951. Because that way you stop the Chinese from increasingly coming in. And then that would eliminate the North Korean regime. But, Truman, as you know, fired MacArthur in 1951. And then, for many different reasons they settled at the thirty-eighth parallel. If they hadn’t done that I think you would have a united peninsula. And the South Korean government. Anyway, that’s the long-term goal that the two Koreas should have, a united Korea. But it’s a—you gotta start with the small steps, you can’t just leap into that stage. And the first thing is, you gotta deal with them, they gotta open up more and more to the western world—not just South Korea but the western world. And then increase the commercial dealings, and whatever, so that you improve their living standards up to a certain level, and that brings confidence on their part. You know you can’t negotiate a good deal if the other guy’s always suspecting and feels that he’s below par. You can’t negotiate a mutually good deal. So you gotta improve their living standards, everything else, open up their policies to the western world, more and more, and eventually we’re gonna reach a point where you could have a—you know with the United Nations’ supervision—you could have an election. You know like Germany did, and others. But that’s a long way away.
(End. 25:19)
Interviewers: Daniel Leibowitz, Benjamin Sachrison, Connor Smith
Length: 26:53
Date: 4 April, 2014
Connor: Uh, why don’t we start out with the first question? What events first led you to leave Korea when you were young?
Spackman: I left Korea for the US—you’re asking about me right? Okay, I left when I was sixteen for California to live in San Diego—near San Diego.
Ben: Did you want to leave Korea to get a better education, or was it because of events that were taking place in Korea at the time?
Spackman: Well, both. I was about twelve when the Korean war came. And, you can imagine the life of an orphan living in a war situation. Most of the time I had to work to feed myself, clothe myself, and so forth. And then when I was doing that, there was an opportunity for me to go to America. So I took on that, and I worked on that for a few years, and eventually I got off in San Francisco via a US Navy ship. So initially it was forced, but the idea of going to school, which I hadn’t been doing, appealed to me, so those are two reasons.
Connor: Mr. Spackman, did you live in the southern part of the peninsula when you first lived in Korea?
Spackman: Yeah, the southern part. But of course, the Korean war kind of engulfed the entire peninsula at different times. You know, down to the edge of the southern part, and then MacArthur pushed all the way up to the edge of the North Korean/Chinese border. So it was all over the peninsula, so everybody had to be affected by that.
Ben: Why did you ultimately decide to return to Korea when you were older?
Spackman: Return to Korea, okay. Yeah so of course I went through high school, and then college, and graduate school, and then I served in the Air Force for four years, US Air Force. And, so, when I was in the Air Force they sent me to Texas for training, Japan for a tour, and then they sent me to Korea. Which—I wanted to come but, there came an opportunity and so I seized on it.
Connor: So was it in your tour in Korea that you chose to move and stay in Korea? Or did that come later?
Spackman: Yeah it came later. While I was serving for three years in Korea, with the US Air Force, I was an intelligence officer. So I used to—I was in the Air Force intelligence. So I used to go to meetings with different intelligence people. You know, the US Army, the CIA, thing like that. So, I got to know the country pretty well. And in the process, I met my wife-to-be. I don’t know if you guys remember this, but the Pueblo incident, remember the US Navy ship that came along the eastern coast to collect intelligence in Korea? That incident occurred, and we were in an emergency mode, well we didn’t sleep too much. My primary job was to collect incoming intelligence, analyze it, and then work up a briefing for the commanding general. And I would drive up to the top of the hill where he lived, on the base. Throughout the night I would give him the briefing. And every time I got up there, he was always drunk because he had to drink to stay up I guess. So we'd share some scotch, but anyway. So I was doing all these things, and then I met my wife-to-be at a tennis court.
(5:00)
I was competing in the Air Force, US Army tennis tournament. Some schoolgirls came to watch us play, and she was in the stands. So anyway, to make the long story short, we met, we got married, and then we went back to California, and I got discharged at the Air Force base. And then we bought a car and drove to New York and started our new life there.
Connor: So, Mr. Spackman, maybe you could use your expertise in business today to help us understand if there’s any business being conducted between North and South Korea today?
Spackman: Well, the only business they conduct are the government-approved contacts and projects, like the so-called Kumgang mountain which is a very beautiful mountain in Korea. Mostly North Korea, but Korea. And then, the North and South agreed to use the tourism to earn money, primarily for the North Koreans. So, they’ve been doing that, but it stopped, it stopped before this young Jong Un came to power. And then another one would be the industrial conflict. You’ve got an industrial complex just above the border in North Korea, and South Korean businesses invested in that project to turn out the apparels, the clothing. Using the cheap labor force of the North Koreans, but of course you had to first train them, and do that, so that’s another way of dealing with them. And then there’s these so-called family reunions. You know, because of the Korean War, Koreans have families separated by the war. Some in North Korea, others in South Korea. So, I think when Jong Un’s father, Jong Il, started this—trying to bring these families together in meetings. So they’ve done that, of course the South Koreans had to give some money to the North Koreans, you know to induce them to do this. I think that’s a good thing. So there’s no commercial, individual—no private commercial trading or dealing with them. So it always has to go through the authorities to get the approval.
Dan: If there were to be commercial business between North Korea and South Korea, how do you think that would affect the diplomatic, political relationship between the North and the South?
Spackman: Obviously I think you’d have to have the two Koreas agree to set certain ways to conduct their business with one another. North Korea itself does not allow private North Korean businesses to deal with the South Korean businessman. In fact, I don’t think there’s any individual private business in North Korea. It’s all by the government, through the government. So, the governments have to agree to a set of rules to conduct these businesses. Like the free trade agreements that South Korea is engaged in. They have an agreement with the US, as well as Canada and the EU and others. But North Koreans don’t have that. All they have is the government doing to negotiating, trading, conducting. That’s the way it is with the Chinese, the Chinese are the largest business partner the North Korean’s have.
(10:00)
That’s where they get all their food, fuel, all the other stuff that they need. And then, the South Koreans are also giving humanitarian aids as well as these industrial projects that they engage in.
Ben: Do you think that the South Korean government could take any more steps to improve the relations with the North?
Spackman: Yeah I think so. You know if you just look ahead, you know you just can’t live on this cat and mouse basis. The North Koreans they—when I say North Koreans I mean the government, not the average citizen. You know there are tens of thousands of defectors, and there are about twenty thousand living in South Korea. I don’t mean them, I mean the North Korean government. They have to guide Jong Il’s money to carry out his consolidation and keep the potential defectors or potential dissenters satisfied. So that’s why some of these shenanigans he puts on, it’s to get some cash from South Korea or anybody else, including the US. So, unless you improve the lives of the North Koreans, you can’t really have a two-way conversation that is mutually respectful. I mean, it’s one-way giving. It’s like me giving some food to somebody who needs it. So, you’ve gotta develop this kind of mutual trust. That’s why the South Korean president, you know the first lady president in the history of Korea. I guess we don’t have one in America yet either. Park has this, what she calls, trust politics. I think it’s a good idea. You know the US ambassadors and the others think that it’s a great idea. You’ve got to have trust between the two so you can have an even keel, you know mutually equal discussions. Right now its so lopsided It’s just one way handouts from South Korea to North Korea. So you’ve gotta do that because you don’t wanna have this kind of armistice. You know they don’t have a peace treaty as you know. They stopped the Korean War, signed the armistice between the Chinese, North Korea, and the UN forces. South Korean government wasn’t a part of this armistice. And the North Koreans use the point to their advantage any time they had some problems. They cannot live like this for ever, I mean come on. Although they lived like this for over sixty years. From my little child days to now, in my seventies. You wanna make some kind of improvement, you want to build up their trust, as well as your trust in them. And the way you do that is to develop the economy, like the South Koreans have kept the GDP of twenty-six thousand. North Koreans have probably a few hundred thousand, if that. So you gotta improve the livelihood and economy. And then I think you could have more productive discussions to improve the relations. So I don’t think we are at that stage yet.
Ben: What steps are North Korean citizens taking to form these relations, or help build these relations? I know that their government is not necessarily willing to make these changes, but are the citizens themselves willing to take steps to improve them?
(15:00)
Spackman: Well I think some of them, especially the intelligentsia, you know the well-educated, would like to do that. And it’s very limited, as to what they can do in their line when you are based in North Korea because your every movement is controlled. I mean they put all the political prisoners in these gulag type of labor camps, and you know some of them just die in that camp. Very few escape from these gulags. But that’s why you have so many defectors. These people are the ones who are—who's been thinking about these things, they know they can’t realize their dreams within North Korea, so that’s why they defect to other countries. And, as I said, twenty thousand came down to South Korea. So, they wanna do that, but their hands are tied as long as they are in North Korea. Because they are so tightly watched and supervised, and they don't have enough to eat to begin with. So when you are hungry, you may have great ideas in your head to improve the people’s welfare or the country's development. But when you are hungry, you worry about your food before you worry about anything else. And that’s the case in North Korea for most of the common citizens. Except for the oligarchs and the hierarchy up. They are the ones who are living off the backs of these common citizens.
Ben: Do the defectors, when they leave, still have any loyalty to North Korea? Or when they’re gone do they mostly forget Korea and start up a new life?
Spackman: Well, there are that so-called twenty thousand in South Korea and tens of thousands elsewhere, some in the US. I’m sure they were dissatisfied and so they left North Korea. But, I'm sure after you live in the South, it’s very difficult for them to get adjusted here. They speak the language, but you know their education in the North was totally different from the way you and I go through go through school. So it’s difficult for them to get adjusted. But, with the support of the South Korean government, financial support—you know they put them up and try to give them jobs and train them so that they could get jobs. But not all of them are satisfied. You this is somewhat less than what they dreamed South Korea would be. I mean that would be the case even if it happened in the US or anywhere, you know.
Connor: How does the average South Korean citizen feel about the North? Do they feels sorry for the North Korean people, do they hate the country, or do they just want peaceful reunification?
Spackman: I think the generation, my generation. You know, the grandfathers of South Korea, are the ones who lived through the Korean war. Of course they hated it. I mean, I don’t hate them per se, I just hate their way of doing things and hurting people, and starving people, and these crazy things with the nuclear tests. But these are the people who do not like the North Koreans. But when we say North Koreans we basically mean the North Korean government. Not the average person, we feel sorry for them obviously. That’s why we send humanitarian aid, continuously. We’ve been doing that for years. But, the others, younger ones. Let’s say my children, who are in their forties, they don’t know North Korea, I mean the Korean war. So, they don’t have the same kind of feeling that we have, my generation. So, yeah, I think—and then the other ones who are going to be the leaders of both sides. It’s just like you guys are gonna be the leaders of the world to your generation. Especially if you keep up this good project, and do your best in school, and in your life.
(20:00)
So, young people are the future. And they have to be convinced, persuaded to look upon each other—the North Koreans are not gonna do this. South Korea has to do this persuading of the young generation to be more outward-looking and to look ahead to see the times when the two Koreas can unite as one country. Think about that, you know South Korea has about forty-five million population. North Korea has about twenty-five million population. So there’s seventy million, that’s like England in terms of population. You know the united Korea they can do a lot more if we can just bring up the North Koreans to the level where South Korea is. And go from there together. So, yeah, I think that it’s the younger generation increasingly they call the country’s direction in the South, as well as in the North—they’re not gonna have much chance because the government won’t allow them. I think there will eventually come a time when the uniting, the peninsula will be united. I hope so.
Ben: Do you think that this unification is possible with the current government of North Korea? Or do you think for this change to happen, the government must fall and a new government must be put in place?
Spackman: Well, that’s a tough one. One that I sometimes talk to my classmates, including your grandma sometimes about. That’s the direction that you have to go. I mean, you can’t just be stuck with this demarcation line and fighting with one another on some stupid nuclear tests and things, and then shooting—recently shooting into the western sea South Korea’s counter-shooting them. However, I’m not too worried that another major war will break up into the two Koreas. Because, if it does, then it’s gonna be devastating. In the old war, the Korean War, you know MacArthur wanted to bomb Manchuria in 1950 or 1951. Because that way you stop the Chinese from increasingly coming in. And then that would eliminate the North Korean regime. But, Truman, as you know, fired MacArthur in 1951. And then, for many different reasons they settled at the thirty-eighth parallel. If they hadn’t done that I think you would have a united peninsula. And the South Korean government. Anyway, that’s the long-term goal that the two Koreas should have, a united Korea. But it’s a—you gotta start with the small steps, you can’t just leap into that stage. And the first thing is, you gotta deal with them, they gotta open up more and more to the western world—not just South Korea but the western world. And then increase the commercial dealings, and whatever, so that you improve their living standards up to a certain level, and that brings confidence on their part. You know you can’t negotiate a good deal if the other guy’s always suspecting and feels that he’s below par. You can’t negotiate a mutually good deal. So you gotta improve their living standards, everything else, open up their policies to the western world, more and more, and eventually we’re gonna reach a point where you could have a—you know with the United Nations’ supervision—you could have an election. You know like Germany did, and others. But that’s a long way away.
(End. 25:19)